NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/programmer/387

Internet Message Format | 1996-08-05 | 10.6 KB

Path: nntp.teleport.com!sschaem
From: [e-mail] (Stephan Schaem)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: >>>>>>> The Future: Amiga goes P
Date: 7 Jan 1996 05:22:39 GMT
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access [phone]
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4cnlav$[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: julie.teleport.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

John Hendrikx ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In a message of 03 Jan 96 Stephan Schaem wrote to All:

:  >> the trouble and use SetIntVector() instead...

:  SS>  trouble? nha its no trouble to now the VBR adr.

: I think it is more trouble than using SetIntVector(). Getting the VBR address
: would mean switching to SuperVisor-mode by generating an interrupt or calling
: SuperVisor() or SuperState().  This would be just as much trouble and not to
: mention that you need to check for 68010+ first as well...

 When the OS is gone its harder to use os function :) I dont think I would
 play that low if I was to use the OS...

: Of course, if you simply assume VBR=0 then you're right, it would be no trouble
: :-)

 Or you can set it to zero :)

:  >> Th> It`s not hardware-c0derz, that ruin the amiga, the amiga ruins
:  >> Th> itsself by expanding the system:

:  >> Hardware-banging ruins the Amiga, period.

:  SS> You mean the amiga would have been better off without games like
:  SS> turrican? The demo scene? The toaster?

: Now it would.  In the early days this wasn't a problem, now it is.

:  SS> Bull, the amiga would have died before the A3000 would have been on
:  SS> the drawing board.

: Probably.

:  SS> But its stupid to say that the amiga ruin itself by expanding ...

: I never said that, the LACK of expanding is ruining the Amiga.  And this lack
: of expanding is caused by a number of things, and one of them is that due to
: Hardware-banging people won't upgrade their machines as this means old software
: breaks (why else do you think there are more than a dozen models of
: Kick-switchers around and why lots of turbo-boards offer a shut-down feature?
: People don't want to see their software breaking, especially not the
: games-people)

 I only use softboot to run 3.x , never was able to get the ROMs . Not that
 I tryed hard.

:  SS> crazy
:  SS> The amiga stay stagnant for way too long, and lost its edge HW wise &
:  SS> kept a high price.

: And why did it stay stagnant?  Lack of sales.  Why the lack of sales?  Again a
: number of reasons:

: - C= screwed up AGA (way too late)
: - Kick 3.0 didn't have adequate support for things frequently needed in
:   games.  This combined with the lack of AGA docs limited the number of
:   AGA games quite a bit.

: But also:

: - I remember magazines quoting numbers as high as 50% of games software
:   breaking on A1200's (a great incentive to upgrade isn't it?) mostly
:   of course due to ILLEGAL hardware-banging (ie, assuming stuff about
:   the hardware which were not officially documented (like using $dff05a))

 Trading your A500 to a A1200 to run A500 game is a lame idea.
 You mean A1200 game breaking on the A1200?! thats CBM fault... 100%

:  SS> So Its demo like 9 fingers, games like turrican, development like BSD
:  SS> , the toaster that ruin the amiga image?

: Yes, they do that now.  Or don't you think it looks kinda silly that when I
: plug in Turrican in my drive that it crashes the machine and that I have to
: pull all sorts of stunts to get it to run?  Really, pc people are VERY
: surprised that I have to turn OFF my accelerator to get games to work.  They
: usually expect it to be the other way around (ie, plug in a Pentium and this
: game will work).

 Well, at least you can turn your accelerator off... I gave up myself on
 running PC demo on my PC.

: Same goes for most Demos, but often even worse than for most games.

:  SS> If AT dont realease low level info on their new model I will really
:  SS> think about upgrading... I wonder how BSD or linux will be ported if they
:  SS> shutdown such vital information.

: Do it the way most companies do it.  If I want to have the documentation to the
: S3 chip from the latest PCI gfx-card than I better have a damn good reason for
: it.  Of course, making a port of BSD or Linux, or writing a driver for OS/2
: qualifies as such a 'damn good reason'.  Requiring the info because you want
: your game to bang the hardware is not.  AT should do it like this, and maybe
: even make the hardware manual 'pricey' -- after all, companies like
: MacroSystems and VillageTronic can afford this easily, while the average hacker
: can't.

 AT should let people do what ever they want, and help them do so buy making
 ALL manual, library, docs, include etc.. free. & publish a free quidline
 on AT-Amiga commercial software guidline and testing steps. So you the user
 when you go to a shop... you look for the AT-OS label and feel good knowing
 you have something that will be able to run on your machine and the new one
 you might get.
 Hey, you see Amiga PPC demo on a site.. dont download it! it might not work
 on your system.

: Writing hardware-banging software only to be used on one machine for a specific
: purpose is okay.  Games don't qualify as such, they shouldn't break when a new
: gfx-card is installed.  However, a Picasso driver for ShapeShifter is allowed
: to break when I plug in a new gfx-card (or even a new improved Picasso).

 I think its OK if the game didn't claim it would work on the WB or said
 it was RTG compatible.
 Otherwise, buy it, play it in native mode and enjoy for its few hours
 of gameplay.

 An SS driver is designed and optimized for ECS for example, of course
 you dont expect it to work on a picasso. like you wont expect an AGA
 game to work on a 512k A500.

:  SS> All this is crazy...

: Limiting hardware-banging in general isn't crazy, it makes for a longer
: life-time of the machine.  It doesn't have to be general knowledge how one
: accesses the blitter directly, that is of course if the OS has decent ways to
: use the blitter (that's a big IF, but not an impossible one for AT).

 Who pushed early amiga programer to make games using the HW?
 The amiga HW was enclosed in an OS that did not wanted to give away
 its performance... it was only natural to access it directly to get
 its full potential.
 This discution could have been otherwise: "Its game developer that
 never used the amiga to its full pentential that killed it"...

:  SS> Ok for PC type games , but console type game have a VERY hard time
:  SS> living in an OS env. You loose your sprite, copper, playfeild, blitter
:  SS> .. what your gonna do? write a doom clone or a sim city 4000?

: Games on the PSX use the OS for practically everything.  Anyway, with decent OS
: functions you don't need to access sprites, blitter and copper directly.  Most
: games don't need hacks like BlitterC2P or CopperScreens. Sprites aren't very
: usefull for games either (too small, not enough, too limited in colors).

 Its a game OS... If you try to emulate the PSX OS function on a PC you will
 see that the HW behind the function are important.

: Who needs Sprites with a fast PCI gfx card?  Blitter rules here.

 refresh all screen from a back buffer, then draw the object...
 But usually PCI card I know dont offer pixel mixing, scale/rotate.

: Copper?  For what?  Making a split-screen?  Not needed if you have True-Color
: modes (or 256 colors as standard).  Or maybe to make a Chunky Copper screen?
: Yeah right!  Or for dragging screens?  If REALLY REALLY needed you could use
: the blitter (I for one hardly ever drag a screen, except when I want to show it
: off to some pc-friends).  Or maybe so you can scroll each line individually a
: different number of pixels?  Fast CPU or blitter can easily move a line of
: pixels one to left or right (chunky is SO easy to scroll).
:
 Copper can be used to multiplex sprite when you dont have enought, or is
 used to modify HW register in sync with the video. That if you dont
 have enought sprite or you have a video buffer that dont support picture
 roll.
 But true you can forget about this if the blitter move the memory for you.
 BTW I looked at W95 games, I think pitfall... the scrolling was jerky.
 (on nice PCI card)

: Fast Blitter, Chunky and True-Color are the keywords, it makes things like
: Sprites, Copper, Dual-playfields, Split-screens, HAM etcetera obsolete.

 Well, when you have too much power you can waist it without a second thought;)

:  >> At the moment we can't expect to see new mindblasting Amiga Hardware, but
:  >> give the PowerAmiga's some time to become common in the Amiga world and
:  >> AT might have the resources to give us something cool later after Amiga
:  >> is back on its feet again.

:  SS> I wish AT would introduce a NEW multimedia machine 'based' on the
:  SS> Amiga OS with tomrrow HW (waiting a year to have a year back apple
:  SS> HW is silly, no?).  Something in the range of the new upcoming SGI
:  SS> lowend but with an affordable price tag.  They can keep making
:  SS> A4000, A1200 for all I care but if they want to recapture the
:  SS> amiga spirite they better go forward and not look backward to
:  SS> create a new machine.  I can wait 2 year for something radical,
:  SS> been waiting since the A3000 came out :)

: I've been waiting since I plugged in a 030 card in my 2000 :-)

: I really hope AT doesn't put too much effort in remaining backwards compatible
: (especially if they intend to do this to keep old games and demos functioning).
:  I also hope this new machine will be modular, heavily rely on cheap hardware
: (ie, use the clone-hardware market), and that even the low-end models have very
: good expansion options (ie, a A1200 type model which either comes in a
: mini-tower case or can very easily be PUT in a mini-tower case).

 If there is really a need for game compatability lets have something like
 the 2600 game pack for pentium PC but for the PPC amiga, that should make
 2600 owner happy when they 'upgrade' to the new PPC amiga ;)
 A radical new HW machine should have radical new games... personaly games
 would be my last interest point in upcoming computers.

 My concern: price, run multiple OS (including something in the amiga OS
 class), well documented in all aspect (That include HW), ...
 If the HW is ordinary, I would prefere AT to put all their effort in
 making a portable OS based on the amiga.

 AT should find a way to lower the price of their A4000 030, and put
 50mhz version in there. I expect prices ~400$ without mem or HD,
 800$ for a 8meg/500meg version. Its competitive with curent PC
 (for 100$ more PC setup offer 100mhz, dual cdrom, monitor..)
 I would actually get a A4000 030 at that price.

 Stephan